Succubus

The arts , poetry & creative writing forum
bombadil1247
member
Posts: 25
Joined: July 28th, 2010, 9:58 am

Succubus

Post by bombadil1247 »

Beware these eyes: grey-steel and poet-wise,
they see beneath your soul and find the faults,
the frailties which define. These eyes chastise
the secret “you”, however many vaults
you built inside: no harbour here to hide
from retribution. Other lashes pale
beside the ones I wield; old sins of pride
laid bare with every blink – assassin veils.
The centres drown: dark pits to pull you down
to Hell’s damnation. Light has lost this fight.
An inner Dark reclaims the victor’s crown
surrendered once but won back here tonight.
Such bloodless battles serve to prove my claim
that Hell and Earth are only one domain.
In Memorial .
Online
User avatar
Little John
member
Posts: 16399
Joined: January 2nd, 2010, 1:46 pm
Location: SE London

Re: Succubus

Post by Little John »

Very existentialist.
Yes this is the real "Little John" (or it could be "colin")
User avatar
SRD
Rantipole
Posts: 9252
Joined: December 31st, 2009, 7:23 pm
Location: Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Succubus

Post by SRD »

Little John wrote:Very existentialist.
Do you think so? I'd have said it was more metaphysical. Dealing, as it seems to me, with the personification of emotions by using the allegory of the (mythical) female demon as substitute for the id in the pointless battle between it and the ego. I might argue with the premise that the id will out whatever, believing, more like the existentialist, that we are responsible for own actions and that the primeval urges of the id should be acknowledged but controlled.
I think if it were existentialist then the succubus would be defeated, banished as a distraction from the seriousness of life, or, in this case, sleep.
Children are like Slinkys - not much use for anything, but it always brings a smile to your face when you throw them down the stairs. Chinchilla
Online
User avatar
Little John
member
Posts: 16399
Joined: January 2nd, 2010, 1:46 pm
Location: SE London

Re: Succubus

Post by Little John »

I was thinking more in terms of Earth and Hell being the same.
Yes this is the real "Little John" (or it could be "colin")
User avatar
SRD
Rantipole
Posts: 9252
Joined: December 31st, 2009, 7:23 pm
Location: Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Succubus

Post by SRD »

I didn't realise that was an existentialist idea.
Children are like Slinkys - not much use for anything, but it always brings a smile to your face when you throw them down the stairs. Chinchilla
User avatar
SRD
Rantipole
Posts: 9252
Joined: December 31st, 2009, 7:23 pm
Location: Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Succubus

Post by SRD »

Ok, a little (and I do mean a little) throws up various pointers about existentialist views of heaven and hell.

Firstly from an article about Nietzsche(my italics):

"Nietzsche's contribution to existentialism was the idea that men must accept that they are part of a material world, regardless of what else might exist. As part of this world, men must live as if there is nothing else beyond life. A failure to live, to take risks, is a failure to realize human potential."

Which may give rise to a notion that heaven and hell are the same to all intents and purposes as we should discount them for the purpose of living but I would think that was taking the matter too far.

And from the same source an article about Kierkegaard

"Existentialism is, in large part, the idea that life is a series of usually poor alternatives. Even a "good" decision has negative aspects. Adam realized not eating the fruit of knowledge would keep him from being more like the Creator, who possessed knowledge. Eating the fruit was certain to anger the Creator. Adam made a choice -- regardless of any external force, the choice was really his and his alone. Adam could have refused Eve and the serpent had he wanted. We always have choices, no matter what we might use as an excuse."

But we do have to remember that Kierkegaard was an avowed Christian.

I think these two points from the architects of existentialism show the principles from which further exposition came.

Again from the same source (a useful little primer on existentialism I think)but this time on Sartre (you'll have to click on the Sartre links on the site as we're only allowed 2 urls per posts here).

"Starting with the theory than man is inherently nothingness or free will, Sartre developed what he considered was a logical argument for atheism. In the absence of a Creator, individuals feel abandoned, with a sense of anger at the universe. Anger and despair lead to a tendency to embrace "Bad Faith." Bad Faith represents a self-deception in which the person views self as an object, not as a person with free will. As an object, a person is without responsibility. Religion, according to Sartre, was a form of bad faith, teaching that previous humans, namely Adam and Eve, were responsible for human frailty. The unconscious is also a form of bad faith, allowing people to deny their thoughts."

He seems to have taken the earlier thoughts and extended them to the idea that there is no heaven or hell. But we also have to remember that Sarte saw himself as a champion of the oppressed, hence his move leftwards politically abd his flirtations with communism.

I am, however, finding it difficult to find a passage where any of the existentialists equate heaven with hell. Can you help?
Children are like Slinkys - not much use for anything, but it always brings a smile to your face when you throw them down the stairs. Chinchilla
bombadil1247
member
Posts: 25
Joined: July 28th, 2010, 9:58 am

Re: Succubus

Post by bombadil1247 »

SRD wrote:Ok, a little (and I do mean a little) throws up various pointers about existentialist views of heaven and hell.

Firstly from an article about Nietzsche(my italics):

"Nietzsche's contribution to existentialism was the idea that men must accept that they are part of a material world, regardless of what else might exist. As part of this world, men must live as if there is nothing else beyond life. A failure to live, to take risks, is a failure to realize human potential."

Which may give rise to a notion that heaven and hell are the same to all intents and purposes as we should discount them for the purpose of living but I would think that was taking the matter too far.

And from the same source an article about Kierkegaard

"Existentialism is, in large part, the idea that life is a series of usually poor alternatives. Even a "good" decision has negative aspects. Adam realized not eating the fruit of knowledge would keep him from being more like the Creator, who possessed knowledge. Eating the fruit was certain to anger the Creator. Adam made a choice -- regardless of any external force, the choice was really his and his alone. Adam could have refused Eve and the serpent had he wanted. We always have choices, no matter what we might use as an excuse."

But we do have to remember that Kierkegaard was an avowed Christian.

I think these two points from the architects of existentialism show the principles from which further exposition came.

Again from the same source (a useful little primer on existentialism I think)but this time on Sartre (you'll have to click on the Sartre links on the site as we're only allowed 2 urls per posts here).

"Starting with the theory than man is inherently nothingness or free will, Sartre developed what he considered was a logical argument for atheism. In the absence of a Creator, individuals feel abandoned, with a sense of anger at the universe. Anger and despair lead to a tendency to embrace "Bad Faith." Bad Faith represents a self-deception in which the person views self as an object, not as a person with free will. As an object, a person is without responsibility. Religion, according to Sartre, was a form of bad faith, teaching that previous humans, namely Adam and Eve, were responsible for human frailty. The unconscious is also a form of bad faith, allowing people to deny their thoughts."

He seems to have taken the earlier thoughts and extended them to the idea that there is no heaven or hell. But we also have to remember that Sarte saw himself as a champion of the oppressed, hence his move leftwards politically abd his flirtations with communism.

I am, however, finding it difficult to find a passage where any of the existentialists equate heaven with hell. Can you help?
really interesting post, SRD, but my premise is that Hell and Earth are the same, no mention of Heaven. I have seen Hell described as the absence from God's presence and that, coupled with the two expulsions - Satan and Adam - gave rise to my conclusion here. It is, though, just a bogeyman tale hung on some images I hoped would evoke some sense of threat,
Jim
In Memorial .
User avatar
SRD
Rantipole
Posts: 9252
Joined: December 31st, 2009, 7:23 pm
Location: Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Succubus

Post by SRD »

:oops: Trust me to misread that. But, as far as the existential/metaphysical argument goes my points still hold true.

Religiously it might be argued that Hell and Earth are the same as there is no sign of a divine presence on Earth, and I think it's Milton in Paradise Lost that has Satan claiming Earth as his domain, but the idea of the unseen presence of God on Earth is strong in Christianity (otherwise such jokes as "God is alive and well and working on a less ambitious project." would be pretty meaningless) thus refuting such premises. Also, such demonic creatures as succubi are more the realm of pre-Christian superstition that was absorbed into medieval Christianity around the same time that punishment rather than reward became the over-riding theme of that religion and nowadays are more the province of the loony far right sections of American and African wings of Christian belief, partly I suspect, because of the closeness of such beliefs to superstition rather than philosophy.

However it's an interesting question as to whether the actions of the succubus are threatening or pleasurable, given the undoubted sexual thrill that the actions of such as vampires evoke. It might be that the actions of the succubus were used to explain night time male emissions and erotic dreams, and had no connotation of threat until the introduction of the guilt aspects of Christianity but were merely explanations of misunderstood physical occurrences.
Children are like Slinkys - not much use for anything, but it always brings a smile to your face when you throw them down the stairs. Chinchilla
bombadil1247
member
Posts: 25
Joined: July 28th, 2010, 9:58 am

Re: Succubus

Post by bombadil1247 »

SRD wrote::oops: Trust me to misread that. But, as far as the existential/metaphysical argument goes my points still hold true.

Religiously it might be argued that Hell and Earth are the same as there is no sign of a divine presence on Earth, and I think it's Milton in Paradise Lost that has Satan claiming Earth as his domain, but the idea of the unseen presence of God on Earth is strong in Christianity (otherwise such jokes as "God is alive and well and working on a less ambitious project." would be pretty meaningless) thus refuting such premises. Also, such demonic creatures as succubi are more the realm of pre-Christian superstition that was absorbed into medieval Christianity around the same time that punishment rather than reward became the over-riding theme of that religion and nowadays are more the province of the loony far right sections of American and African wings of Christian belief, partly I suspect, because of the closeness of such beliefs to superstition rather than philosophy.

However it's an interesting question as to whether the actions of the succubus are threatening or pleasurable, given the undoubted sexual thrill that the actions of such as vampires evoke. It might be that the actions of the succubus were used to explain night time male emissions and erotic dreams, and had no connotation of threat until the introduction of the guilt aspects of Christianity but were merely explanations of misunderstood physical occurrences.
Hi, Simon,

I don't think I would disagree markedly with your arguments, especially with regard to nocturnal emissions, bit I'm not sure a discussion in this thread would do the subject justice. My poem doesn't reference the sexual aspects of the succubus and the 'threat' element comes from the idea that anyone can see the inner 'me'; all the secrets we hide even from ourselves, the 'little crimes we forget' if you follow me.
Jim
In Memorial .
Online
User avatar
Little John
member
Posts: 16399
Joined: January 2nd, 2010, 1:46 pm
Location: SE London

Re: Succubus

Post by Little John »

I've always had this desire/quest whatever, to see into other's souls and for them to see into my own. And for all of us to be able to see our own selves more clearly. Warts and all. In fact, if we could see ourselves clearly, I think we could be more forgiving of ourselves and others.
Yes this is the real "Little John" (or it could be "colin")
User avatar
SRD
Rantipole
Posts: 9252
Joined: December 31st, 2009, 7:23 pm
Location: Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Succubus

Post by SRD »

bombadil1247 wrote: Hi, Simon,

I don't think I would disagree markedly with your arguments, especially with regard to nocturnal emissions, bit I'm not sure a discussion in this thread would do the subject justice. My poem doesn't reference the sexual aspects of the succubus and the 'threat' element comes from the idea that anyone can see the inner 'me'; all the secrets we hide even from ourselves, the 'little crimes we forget' if you follow me.
Jim
Hmmm - I'd not been aware that the succubus had any use for the male other than sexual gratification. But I see where you're coming from in your poem. I'm not sure that I have many secrets I hide from anyone, let alone myself (but then how would I know that without psychoanalysis?) so maybe that's why I have difficulty associating with the poem.
Children are like Slinkys - not much use for anything, but it always brings a smile to your face when you throw them down the stairs. Chinchilla
bombadil1247
member
Posts: 25
Joined: July 28th, 2010, 9:58 am

Re: Succubus

Post by bombadil1247 »

SRD wrote:
bombadil1247 wrote: Hi, Simon,

I don't think I would disagree markedly with your arguments, especially with regard to nocturnal emissions, bit I'm not sure a discussion in this thread would do the subject justice. My poem doesn't reference the sexual aspects of the succubus and the 'threat' element comes from the idea that anyone can see the inner 'me'; all the secrets we hide even from ourselves, the 'little crimes we forget' if you follow me.
Jim
Hmmm - I'd not been aware that the succubus had any use for the male other than sexual gratification. But I see where you're coming from in your poem. I'm not sure that I have many secrets I hide from anyone, let alone myself (but then how would I know that without psychoanalysis?) so maybe that's why I have difficulty associating with the poem.
Hi again,Simon,

I tried to write this from the demon's POV, hence the final couplet. Definitely intended as a 'performance piece', I wasn't even thinking about reader association but was looking for reaction to her monologue. It seems I'm the only one with secrets. ;)
Jim
In Memorial .
User avatar
SRD
Rantipole
Posts: 9252
Joined: December 31st, 2009, 7:23 pm
Location: Wiltshire
Contact:

Re: Succubus

Post by SRD »

You obviously haven't been reading L_J and mm's contributions to the dreams thread. :lol:
Children are like Slinkys - not much use for anything, but it always brings a smile to your face when you throw them down the stairs. Chinchilla
Online
User avatar
Little John
member
Posts: 16399
Joined: January 2nd, 2010, 1:46 pm
Location: SE London

Re: Succubus

Post by Little John »

Just been googling bombadil and this thread was top of the results. I googled because bombadil was mentioned on the BJH fan club forum and Im still no wiser as to why. Back to google......

......
Bombadil:
When it was first released in 1972, the writer of "When The City Sleeps" was given as Lester Forrest - it may be significant that one of the motorway service stations BJH used when travelling up and down the country was Leicester Forest on the M1. In 2003 the toilets at Leicester Forest Services won a 5 Star Loo of the Year Award ...
The song was the B-side of an instrumental single called "Breathless", credited to Terry Bull (and it was!)
The pseudonym Bombadil came from Tom Bombadil, a character in Tolkien's Lord Of The Rings
Yes this is the real "Little John" (or it could be "colin")
User avatar
marymary
Global Moderator
Posts: 15584
Joined: December 31st, 2009, 7:59 pm

Re: Succubus

Post by marymary »

I don’t think he’s still with us?
Post Reply